[openstack-community] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users at the next summit
Thought I'd post this here too (because of the noise in the general list)... G'day OpenStackLand, I have an idea for the next summit to put forward... Like we have the various project design summit session days at the summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an Operators and Users day at the very start of the next summit (and hopefully all of them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 summits I've attended, from the users and operators point of view we've had a rag tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions that really don't get anywhere much and don’t make it to any sort of plan or worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day will be run like the design summit session days where all of us that have to deal with the consequences of the software development of this project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to present real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development teams. Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" lounge too. :-P Cheers Tristan
+1. I like this idea. -Dheeru @Community Service On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Tristan Goode <tristan@aptira.com> wrote:
Thought I'd post this here too (because of the noise in the general list)...
G'day OpenStackLand,
I have an idea for the next summit to put forward...
Like we have the various project design summit session days at the summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an Operators and Users day at the very start of the next summit (and hopefully all of them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 summits I've attended, from the users and operators point of view we've had a rag tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions that really don't get anywhere much and don’t make it to any sort of plan or worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day will be run like the design summit session days where all of us that have to deal with the consequences of the software development of this project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to present real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development teams. Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" lounge too. :-P
Cheers
Tristan
_______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
-- -dheeru @Community Service
+1 I really like your timing of it too. I can see this as a rallying point for operators and application developers. We can discuss what's important to us and our pain points and then encourage everyone to attend design sessions and give the ops and app devs perspective. I attended a number of sessions at the last summit where the OpenStack developers were down right excited to have real users giving their feedback. Everett On Dec 12, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Tristan Goode wrote: Thought I'd post this here too (because of the noise in the general list)... G'day OpenStackLand, I have an idea for the next summit to put forward... Like we have the various project design summit session days at the summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an Operators and Users day at the very start of the next summit (and hopefully all of them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 summits I've attended, from the users and operators point of view we've had a rag tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions that really don't get anywhere much and don’t make it to any sort of plan or worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day will be run like the design summit session days where all of us that have to deal with the consequences of the software development of this project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to present real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development teams. Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" lounge too. :-P Cheers Tristan _______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org<mailto:Community@lists.openstack.org> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
I agree with this suggestion. While development and design is obviously critical - a track dedicated to those managing existing clouds or installing them could really benefit from sharing their experiences in a dedicated way. Good idea. Cheers, Adam -- Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io Musings: twitter.com/varud <https://twitter.com/varud> About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews@rackspace.com>wrote:
+1
I really like your timing of it too. I can see this as a rallying point for operators and application developers. We can discuss what's important to us and our pain points and then encourage everyone to attend design sessions and give the ops and app devs perspective. I attended a number of sessions at the last summit where the OpenStack developers were down right excited to have real users giving their feedback.
Everett
On Dec 12, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Tristan Goode wrote:
Thought I'd post this here too (because of the noise in the general list)...
G'day OpenStackLand,
I have an idea for the next summit to put forward...
Like we have the various project design summit session days at the summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an Operators and Users day at the very start of the next summit (and hopefully all of them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 summits I've attended, from the users and operators point of view we've had a rag tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions that really don't get anywhere much and don’t make it to any sort of plan or worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day will be run like the design summit session days where all of us that have to deal with the consequences of the software development of this project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to present real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development teams. Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" lounge too. :-P
Cheers Tristan
_______________________________________________
Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
_______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Does anyone have any proposals on how to engage users in addition to panels? For example, should we consider running usability studies during the "Operators and Users" day? Piet Kruithof From: Adam Nelson [mailto:adam@varud.com] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:27 AM To: Everett Toews Cc: Tristan Goode; <user-committee@lists.openstack.org>; <community@lists.openstack.org> Subject: Re: [openstack-community] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users at the next summit I agree with this suggestion. While development and design is obviously critical - a track dedicated to those managing existing clouds or installing them could really benefit from sharing their experiences in a dedicated way. Good idea. Cheers, Adam -- Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io<http://kili.io> Musings: twitter.com/varud<https://twitter.com/varud> About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews@rackspace.com<mailto:everett.toews@rackspace.com>> wrote: +1 I really like your timing of it too. I can see this as a rallying point for operators and application developers. We can discuss what's important to us and our pain points and then encourage everyone to attend design sessions and give the ops and app devs perspective. I attended a number of sessions at the last summit where the OpenStack developers were down right excited to have real users giving their feedback. Everett On Dec 12, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Tristan Goode wrote: Thought I'd post this here too (because of the noise in the general list)... G'day OpenStackLand, I have an idea for the next summit to put forward... Like we have the various project design summit session days at the summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an Operators and Users day at the very start of the next summit (and hopefully all of them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 summits I've attended, from the users and operators point of view we've had a rag tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions that really don't get anywhere much and don't make it to any sort of plan or worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day will be run like the design summit session days where all of us that have to deal with the consequences of the software development of this project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to present real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development teams. Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" lounge too. :-P Cheers Tristan _______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org<mailto:Community@lists.openstack.org> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community _______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org<mailto:Community@lists.openstack.org> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
I think this is a good idea too, but its also important it not clash with the design summit days... It would be good to get some devs into the room if at all possible. Michael On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Adam Nelson <adam@varud.com> wrote:
I agree with this suggestion.
While development and design is obviously critical - a track dedicated to those managing existing clouds or installing them could really benefit from sharing their experiences in a dedicated way.
Good idea.
Cheers, Adam
-- Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io Musings: twitter.com/varud About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson
On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Everett Toews <everett.toews@rackspace.com> wrote:
+1
I really like your timing of it too. I can see this as a rallying point for operators and application developers. We can discuss what's important to us and our pain points and then encourage everyone to attend design sessions and give the ops and app devs perspective. I attended a number of sessions at the last summit where the OpenStack developers were down right excited to have real users giving their feedback.
Everett
On Dec 12, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Tristan Goode wrote:
Thought I'd post this here too (because of the noise in the general list)...
G'day OpenStackLand,
I have an idea for the next summit to put forward...
Like we have the various project design summit session days at the summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an Operators and Users day at the very start of the next summit (and hopefully all of them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 summits I've attended, from the users and operators point of view we've had a rag tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions that really don't get anywhere much and don’t make it to any sort of plan or worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day will be run like the design summit session days where all of us that have to deal with the consequences of the software development of this project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to present real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development teams. Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" lounge too. :-P
Cheers Tristan
_______________________________________________
Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
_______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
_______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
-- Rackspace Australia
+1 for the whole idea of including Ops and Users. On 2013/13/12 17:14, Michael Still wrote:
I think this is a good idea too, but its also important it not clash with the design summit days... It would be good to get some devs into the room if at all possible. +1
I agree that it is very important also for devs being present. Though, whole time around design summit is very constrained. It will be very challenging - we already have problems to get all the topics within 4 days (some projects' sessions were shared). If we want to handle all design topics + users feedback + there is intention to get cross-project cooperation topics in, we will have to find out a way how to do that properly so that there are not much triple-bookings in the same time.
G'day OpenStackLand,
I have an idea for the next summit to put forward...
Like we have the various project design summit session days at the summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an Operators and Users day at the very start of the next summit (and hopefully all of them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 summits I've attended, from the users and operators point of view we've had a rag tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions that really don't get anywhere much and don’t make it to any sort of plan or worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day will be run like the design summit session days where all of us that have to deal with the consequences of the software development of this project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to present real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development teams. Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" lounge too. :-P
-- Jarda
On 2013-12-13 18:26:43 +0300 (+0300), Adam Nelson wrote: [...]
a track dedicated to those managing existing clouds or installing them could really benefit from sharing their experiences in a dedicated way.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but at the last summit (as at previous ones) we had an "Operations" track. It ran pretty much solid for three days straight... http://openstacksummitnovember2013.sched.org/overview/type/operations It sounds like energy would be best directed into improving and redirecting that, if it's not meeting the current needs of deployer/operator attendees? -- Jeremy Stanley
That's a bunch of talks. What I'm trying to establish is a feedback loop.
-----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Stanley [mailto:fungi@yuggoth.org] Sent: Sunday, 15 December 2013 10:41 AM To: community@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-community] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users at the next summit
On 2013-12-13 18:26:43 +0300 (+0300), Adam Nelson wrote: [...]
a track dedicated to those managing existing clouds or installing them could really benefit from sharing their experiences in a dedicated way.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but at the last summit (as at previous ones) we had an "Operations" track. It ran pretty much solid for three days straight...
http://openstacksummitnovember2013.sched.org/overview/type/operations
It sounds like energy would be best directed into improving and redirecting that, if it's not meeting the current needs of deployer/operator attendees? -- Jeremy Stanley
We had a really good (and unexpected) experiment with something similar during the Swift sessions in Hong Kong. One of the technical sessions was led by a Swift contributor who brought a use case and a set of very practical questions about what using Swift as part of the entire storage system would look like. In this particular case, it was exploring the use of Swift as storage for the LINE messaging app <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_(application)>. When considering any OpenStack project in production system, many factors must be considered. These are the sort of questions that come up every day as part of a sales process (even if that sales process is simply convincing other internal people to use something). Questions like: What's the pain point with the system it's replacing? How does it integrate with existing policies and procedures? Does it functionally meet all current requirements, or is additional development work needed? etc. In the case of LINE discussion for Swift, we had to consider questions around global distribution, hot content, supporting a billion users (ie auth questions), and other questions related to supporting a massively popular mobile application. One thing I liked about the discussion is that it wasn't a slam-dunk traditional use case. There were areas where Swift was a great fit for the LINE app, and there were areas where new functionality would be required to better support their use case. These sort of discussions happen every day as vendors are pitching their OpenStack wares to potential new users. The good parts about the discussion in HK was that it was an engineer-to-engineer discussion (with no related product sales pitch), and it exposed the active Swift contributors gathered in HK to the varied use cases that face real-world deployments. It's this kind of feedback that is essential for keeping the code relevant and the vision fresh. I got lots of positive feedback after the LINE session in HK, and it's something I'll be actively seeking out for Atlanta. It's got to be balanced so it doesn't turn into a vendor honeypot, but I definitely want to have one session during the Swift technical track at the next summit focused on sussing out requirements for a hard real-world use case. I'd encourage other OpenStack projects to do the same. --John On Dec 14, 2013, at 11:29 PM, Tristan Goode <tristan@aptira.com> wrote:
That's a bunch of talks. What I'm trying to establish is a feedback loop.
-----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Stanley [mailto:fungi@yuggoth.org] Sent: Sunday, 15 December 2013 10:41 AM To: community@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-community] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users at the next summit
On 2013-12-13 18:26:43 +0300 (+0300), Adam Nelson wrote: [...]
a track dedicated to those managing existing clouds or installing them could really benefit from sharing their experiences in a dedicated way.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but at the last summit (as at previous ones) we had an "Operations" track. It ran pretty much solid for three days straight...
http://openstacksummitnovember2013.sched.org/overview/type/operations
It sounds like energy would be best directed into improving and redirecting that, if it's not meeting the current needs of deployer/operator attendees? -- Jeremy Stanley
_______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
On 2013-12-15 08:09:57 -0800 (-0800), John Dickinson wrote: [...]
It's got to be balanced so it doesn't turn into a vendor honeypot [...]
FWIW, over the past couple summits I've been most scrutinizing of any talks which look like they have some chance of being warped into a vendor-specific sales pitch, and choose open forum/panel formats and presentations from deployers before all else. Put in abstracts for these sorts of sessions and I can pretty well guarantee, at least for any track I chair, that they'll be selected. -- Jeremy Stanley
Oops, my bad :-/ I went to some of those talks but didn't fully realize that they were part of a unified track. Anyway, I think maybe Tristan's point is to have a similar format to the developer sessions but instead with a focus on operations/deployment. This is going to be tough though. Vendors are naturally much more interested in the operations/deployment side for obvious reasons and that sets up more challenges for managing the meetings effectively and openly. Anyway, I think it's a good idea (if I understood Tristan correctly). -Adam -- Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io Musings: twitter.com/varud <https://twitter.com/varud> About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 8:33 PM, Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> wrote:
On 2013-12-15 08:09:57 -0800 (-0800), John Dickinson wrote: [...]
It's got to be balanced so it doesn't turn into a vendor honeypot [...]
FWIW, over the past couple summits I've been most scrutinizing of any talks which look like they have some chance of being warped into a vendor-specific sales pitch, and choose open forum/panel formats and presentations from deployers before all else. Put in abstracts for these sorts of sessions and I can pretty well guarantee, at least for any track I chair, that they'll be selected. -- Jeremy Stanley
_______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
[not sure the 'community' list is the most appropriate one where to have this conversation. I think it's more appropriate for the User Committee. Shall we move it there?] On 12/15/2013 08:09 AM, John Dickinson wrote:
When considering any OpenStack project in production system, many factors must be considered. These are the sort of questions that come up every day as part of a sales process (even if that sales process is simply convincing other internal people to use something).
Indeed, your comment confirms that one way to close the loop is to establish a formal forum for product and project managers to talk and bring to the OpenStack developer their expertise. I think that product managers should be able to speak more fluently in terms that developers can understand and these conversations lead to improvements faster. Thoughts? /stef -- Ask and answer questions on https://ask.openstack.org
I'd suggest openstack@lists.openstack.org. The user committee mailing list is fine if you want to discuss the details of survey confidentiality but it is not the route to reach the average busy users/operators. There is a clear need for a body that can translate user/operator needs and work with the developers to define the right blueprints/bugs. Not an easy job, especially to find those with some time but volunteers are welcome. Tim
-----Original Message----- From: Stefano Maffulli [mailto:stefano@openstack.org] Sent: 16 December 2013 20:25 To: John Dickinson; Tristan Goode Cc: community@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-community] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users at the next summit
[not sure the 'community' list is the most appropriate one where to have this conversation. I think it's more appropriate for the User Committee. Shall we move it there?]
On 12/15/2013 08:09 AM, John Dickinson wrote:
When considering any OpenStack project in production system, many factors must be considered. These are the sort of questions that come up every day as part of a sales process (even if that sales process is simply convincing other internal people to use something).
Indeed, your comment confirms that one way to close the loop is to establish a formal forum for product and project managers to talk and bring to the OpenStack developer their expertise. I think that product managers should be able to speak more fluently in terms that developers can understand and these conversations lead to improvements faster. Thoughts?
/stef
-- Ask and answer questions on https://ask.openstack.org
_______________________________________________ Community mailing list Community@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
On 2013-12-15 18:29:35 +1100 (+1100), Tristan Goode wrote:
That's a bunch of talks. What I'm trying to establish is a feedback loop.
No doubt--I was merely trying to counter Adam's assertion that we didn't have a conference "track" for operators. In fact, not only did we, it was (unsurprisingly) called the "Operations Track." -- Jeremy Stanley
participants (11)
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Adam Nelson
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dheeru
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Everett Toews
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Jaromir Coufal
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Jeremy Stanley
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John Dickinson
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Kruithof, Piet
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Michael Still
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Stefano Maffulli
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Tim Bell
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Tristan Goode